How Much Sympathy Do Joggers or Bicyclists Deserve?
The pedestrian versus vehicle rights conflict on roadways was made painfully clear in West Seattle when a jogging pedestrian was struck by a semi and critically injured. When emergency workers arrived at the scene, they remarked on camera that the man should not jog to work. Their remarks were peppered with expletive insults. This has concerned joggers and bicyclists up in arms, but the question of how much sympathy the man deserves is still open for debate.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuPPgjairCw[/youtube]Coming close to death or dying is the utmost of sympathetic events. Even if a person is foolhardy, he or she still elicits sympathy in such a situation. Therefore, in that respect, the general human reaction would be to feel sympathy for the jogger. However, that is only concerning his injuries and emergency workers are accustomed to such injuries.
If the man was jogging in the middle of the road, sympathy becomes a gray area. Was he in a specially marked lane for pedestrians? Was he in a crosswalk and, if so, did he have the right of way at the moment? If the answer to any of the above questions is yes then the pedestrian is innocent of guilt in the eyes of the law. If the jogger was unlawfully jogging in the middle of the road, he is at fault in the eyes of the law. This may not make him unworthy of sympathy, but it may explain the exasperated remarks made by emergency workers.
In any event, this is an ongoing conversation about sharing the road and how we can all live together.
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I have huge issues with bicyclists in their tight stretch pants riding double (side by side) in my rural county roads with tons of twistys and sharper blind curves. Most come from Madison WI and choose to NOT travel the wonderful bike trails in and around Madison and instead travel twisty country roads and do NOT go on the shoulder of the road. I’m sorry, but they do NOT belong there and when 2 cars come from different directions, the bicyclists should get off the road or stop and get off the road, but they think they own the roads in the country most do not ride the white line and instead stay 2-3 feet onto the road almost forcing an accident. Yes, I can slow down which I do but at times, 2 cars coming in different directions cannot be avoided. Some may say it is the vehicle driver’s responsibility to even stop or slow down from 60 to 10 mph if need be to avoid an accident, but I say it is a 2-way street meaning the bicyclists have a legal responsibility to stop or pull over off the road or at the very least ride the white line on the edge of the road and NOT drive 2-3 feet into the road, especially if traffic is coming from both ways. I don’t have any issues with walkers since most are courteous and respectful of the right of way plus I do not live in Madison WI. If I did, I am sure 100’s of walkers everyday think they own the road as well. Rest assured, if I was stupid enough to drive my bicycle on rural twisty country roads weekly like they do, you can be sure I would be off the road and/or stop for fear of getting hit by a car.
I have huge issues with bicyclists in their tight stretch pants riding double (side by side) in my rural county roads with tons of twistys and sharper blind curves. Most come from Madison WI and choose to NOT travel the wonderful bike trails in and around Madison and instead travel twisty country roads and do NOT go on the shoulder of the road. I’m sorry, but they do NOT belong there and when 2 cars come from different directions, the bicyclists should get off the road or stop and get off the road, but they think they own the roads in the country most do not ride the white line and instead stay 2-3 feet onto the road almost forcing an accident. Yes, I can slow down which I do but at times, 2 cars coming in different directions cannot be avoided. Some may say it is the vehicle driver’s responsibility to even stop or slow down from 60 to 10 mph if need be to avoid an accident, but I say it is a 2-way street meaning the bicyclists have a legal responsibility to stop or pull over off the road or at the very least ride the white line on the edge of the road and NOT drive 2-3 feet into the road, especially if traffic is coming from both ways. I don’t have any issues with walkers since most are courteous and respectful of the right of way plus I do not live in Madison WI. If I did, I am sure 100’s of walkers everyday think they own the road as well. Rest assured, if I was stupid enough to drive my bicycle on rural twisty country roads weekly like they do, you can be sure I would be off the road and/or stop for fear of getting hit by a car.
I am a novice bicyclist also and find it tough in rural country roads around Madison to give 3 feet rule to cyclists when oncoming traffic comes at you. No one can honestly expect a car to slow down to 10 mph in a 55 mph speed zone when several cars are behind you and also coming at you the other way at the same time. The shoulder of these roads are at best 1 foot if that before going into the ditch especially a few twisty rural country roads these bicyclists take. I don’t see the need for them to be there at all personally. I know I wouldn’t risk my life to see the countryside. I like the rule in Colorado meaning cyclists should not ride without a reasonable safety margin on the right hand side of the roadway since the few roads these cyclists take are NOT safe enough to support 2 cars and a cyclist at the same time. I wish WI had a law like that, or do they? The few times I have taken my kids and I outside into the country outside of my small town the road has a white line we stay on or if cars come both ways, I tell my kids to slow down and drive real slow in the 3′ of gravel shoulder where the roads these cyclists take does not have that 3′ of gravel to go on which is totally not safe. Besides, the 1,000 dollar bikes they ride are totally 100% made for concrete/blacktop road, not gravel, with their very skinny/faster tires.
I am a novice bicyclist also and find it tough in rural country roads around Madison to give 3 feet rule to cyclists when oncoming traffic comes at you. No one can honestly expect a car to slow down to 10 mph in a 55 mph speed zone when several cars are behind you and also coming at you the other way at the same time. The shoulder of these roads are at best 1 foot if that before going into the ditch especially a few twisty rural country roads these bicyclists take. I don’t see the need for them to be there at all personally. I know I wouldn’t risk my life to see the countryside. I like the rule in Colorado meaning cyclists should not ride without a reasonable safety margin on the right hand side of the roadway since the few roads these cyclists take are NOT safe enough to support 2 cars and a cyclist at the same time. I wish WI had a law like that, or do they? The few times I have taken my kids and I outside into the country outside of my small town the road has a white line we stay on or if cars come both ways, I tell my kids to slow down and drive real slow in the 3′ of gravel shoulder where the roads these cyclists take does not have that 3′ of gravel to go on which is totally not safe. Besides, the 1,000 dollar bikes they ride are totally 100% made for concrete/blacktop road, not gravel, with their very skinny/faster tires.
Fellow Coloradoan here. While I’m not as frequent a cyclist anymore as I once was, my issue isn’t with the laws to protect cyclists and pedestrians. It’s with the people themselves. Here in CO, it is illegal to ride two abreast on Denver streets, but is done quite often. Too many cyclists get hit or nearly hit for running stop signs/lights, as I witness these events on a daily basis in the Highlands neighborhoods, as well on my commutes thru Boulder. Too many times cyclists, like motorists anymore, have their I-Pod blasting music and are oblivious to their surroundings and traffic. By Colorado law, any cyclist on the road must obey the same traffic laws as an automobile. Problem is, on a percentage basis, I see more cyclists disobey the rules of the road than I do automobile drivers. And we see tons of bad drivers around here. I believe this is because cyclists know or at least think they do not have to obey the same laws, or they believe they’ll never get pulled over for such an offense. Growing up here in CO, I have learned to share the road, and certainly have no issues doing so. All my frustrations revolve around too many riders complete disregard for the laws and the safety of themselves and others.
Fellow Coloradoan here. While I’m not as frequent a cyclist anymore as I once was, my issue isn’t with the laws to protect cyclists and pedestrians. It’s with the people themselves. Here in CO, it is illegal to ride two abreast on Denver streets, but is done quite often. Too many cyclists get hit or nearly hit for running stop signs/lights, as I witness these events on a daily basis in the Highlands neighborhoods, as well on my commutes thru Boulder. Too many times cyclists, like motorists anymore, have their I-Pod blasting music and are oblivious to their surroundings and traffic. By Colorado law, any cyclist on the road must obey the same traffic laws as an automobile. Problem is, on a percentage basis, I see more cyclists disobey the rules of the road than I do automobile drivers. And we see tons of bad drivers around here. I believe this is because cyclists know or at least think they do not have to obey the same laws, or they believe they’ll never get pulled over for such an offense. Growing up here in CO, I have learned to share the road, and certainly have no issues doing so. All my frustrations revolve around too many riders complete disregard for the laws and the safety of themselves and others.
I’m not sure what point they were trying to make in the video clip. Who cares about the personal thoughts and feelings of the officers on scene. If the victim was provided neccessary and appropriate medical treatment and the collision was investigated fairly and properly, it really doesn’t matter if the cops think he was an idiot or not. I am a cop, I rarely encounter people using common sense during an average day. I’m not allowed to be rude to people, but I am allowed to have my personal opinion about stupid decisions with another officer. It just so happens that this officer’s personal opinion was audio recorded. That does not change the fact that he has the right to the opinion and he wasn’t “discourteous” to the victim.
Bicycling and being a pedestrian are 2 different things. A pedestrian is supposed to use sidewalks and crosswalks. In most fatal pedestrian collisions, the pedestrian is at fault. Vehicles are only required to yield to pedestrians if they are already in a crosswalk. Pedestrians are not allowed to enter the crosswalk until it is safe to do so. It obviously wasn’t safe for the pedestrian in this case. It shouldn’t take but 5 seconds to cross a single lane of traffic, but it takes a lot longer to stop a large truck moving at a posted speed limit. He either wasn’t in a cross walk or stepped out in front of a moving vehicle… HIS FAULT.
Bikes are considered vehicles and are not allowed to use crosswalks. There will always be conflict between a cyclist (doing 15 or 20 mph in a 40-40 mph zone) and a car (who is usually attempting to do at least the speed limit). I ride my bike on bike trails or residential roadways, so as to not be involved in the conflict on a commuter route. Personally I feel that it is selfish for a cyclist to travel well below the speed limit on a single lane road and cause a line of traffic behind them. I realize that they are legally entitled to do such, but its still an egotistical thing to do…
I’m not sure what point they were trying to make in the video clip. Who cares about the personal thoughts and feelings of the officers on scene. If the victim was provided neccessary and appropriate medical treatment and the collision was investigated fairly and properly, it really doesn’t matter if the cops think he was an idiot or not. I am a cop, I rarely encounter people using common sense during an average day. I’m not allowed to be rude to people, but I am allowed to have my personal opinion about stupid decisions with another officer. It just so happens that this officer’s personal opinion was audio recorded. That does not change the fact that he has the right to the opinion and he wasn’t “discourteous” to the victim.
Bicycling and being a pedestrian are 2 different things. A pedestrian is supposed to use sidewalks and crosswalks. In most fatal pedestrian collisions, the pedestrian is at fault. Vehicles are only required to yield to pedestrians if they are already in a crosswalk. Pedestrians are not allowed to enter the crosswalk until it is safe to do so. It obviously wasn’t safe for the pedestrian in this case. It shouldn’t take but 5 seconds to cross a single lane of traffic, but it takes a lot longer to stop a large truck moving at a posted speed limit. He either wasn’t in a cross walk or stepped out in front of a moving vehicle… HIS FAULT.
Bikes are considered vehicles and are not allowed to use crosswalks. There will always be conflict between a cyclist (doing 15 or 20 mph in a 40-40 mph zone) and a car (who is usually attempting to do at least the speed limit). I ride my bike on bike trails or residential roadways, so as to not be involved in the conflict on a commuter route. Personally I feel that it is selfish for a cyclist to travel well below the speed limit on a single lane road and cause a line of traffic behind them. I realize that they are legally entitled to do such, but its still an egotistical thing to do…
Working in Portland OR (the most bicycle frendly city) I see this crap all the time and have very little simpathy. Bikes around here run reds, ride two accross, weave between cars in traffic, grab onto vehicles to get going faster and when one gets hit by a car they cry fowl on the driver of the car. what do the Police around here do? NOTHING (thanks to our mayor)! I have yet to hear of one bike get a ticket for anything! I think if you are on the main road, you should have to help pay for and maintain it and fallow the freaking laws. even $5 a year to licence your bike is not a big deal, dont by Starbucks for a day!
Peds are about the same, their favorite thing to do is walk between 2 parked cars on the street where you cant see them and cross just as you are comming down the road. once again Police do nothing (thank you again mayor). So for this cop to give a little crap to this one hopefuly makes a few of the dumb ones think twice about which is heavier, bicycle or 09 Toyota Tundra π
WIN!
Working in Portland OR (the most bicycle frendly city) I see this crap all the time and have very little simpathy. Bikes around here run reds, ride two accross, weave between cars in traffic, grab onto vehicles to get going faster and when one gets hit by a car they cry fowl on the driver of the car. what do the Police around here do? NOTHING (thanks to our mayor)! I have yet to hear of one bike get a ticket for anything! I think if you are on the main road, you should have to help pay for and maintain it and fallow the freaking laws. even $5 a year to licence your bike is not a big deal, dont by Starbucks for a day!
Peds are about the same, their favorite thing to do is walk between 2 parked cars on the street where you cant see them and cross just as you are comming down the road. once again Police do nothing (thank you again mayor). So for this cop to give a little crap to this one hopefuly makes a few of the dumb ones think twice about which is heavier, bicycle or 09 Toyota Tundra π
WIN!
Mike I agree with what you posted. Just about once a month here in Jax, Fl one cyclist or pedestrian is hit> Most die from the injuries. Yes most cyclist don’t obey the lights etc. You can have 20+ cyclist in a group where they are 4 wide on a county road. Some would move but most won’t. I think the story stated the guy was jogging. If he was jogging in the street he should be like the cyclist by the white line. Personally I would run on the grass next to the shoulder or in the city run the sidewalk.
Mike I agree with what you posted. Just about once a month here in Jax, Fl one cyclist or pedestrian is hit> Most die from the injuries. Yes most cyclist don’t obey the lights etc. You can have 20+ cyclist in a group where they are 4 wide on a county road. Some would move but most won’t. I think the story stated the guy was jogging. If he was jogging in the street he should be like the cyclist by the white line. Personally I would run on the grass next to the shoulder or in the city run the sidewalk.
mk – I think there’s the law – which says bicyclists have as much right to the road as anyone – and then there’s common sense, which says a 200 lbs bicycle/bicyclist combo has no business sharing the road with a 4000 lbs vehicle. And two abreast? That’s illegal AND stupid.
I’m a bicyclist (well, mountain biker) and I get nervous riding on the side of a busy road. I’d rather ride up and down a mountain over big rocks…less risky.
Tim – You make a compelling case – great points, and great work. π
Justin – Here here on bicylcists running red lights and ignoring stop signs. If you want to use the road like a car, at least obey the same laws. After all, the traffic laws are there for everyone because they make everyone safer.
Good to hear from you, btw! π
Mike – I’m with you when you say “who cares” about the rude comments by the police officers. They (you) deal with a lot of crap, so a great deal of latitude should be given in regards to morbid jokes or mean-spirited comments. If you guys can’t vent, you might not be in the right frame of mind during an emergency. Far better for you to make fun of me than to unleash a day’s worth of frustrations on a single lawbreaker.
Also, good point about pedestrians being at fault. In Manhattan, I saw numerous pedestrians make a stupid or thoughtless move into traffic and damn near get hit (I even saw a young woman get laid out by a Taxi). Pedestrians take risks, often times because they’re not paying close enough attention (at least in NYC).
Josh – Sounds infuriating. I can understand where you’re coming from: If you act like a car, you should follow the same rules, right?
Mickey – Me too – jogging next to the road isn’t much fun in my book. Too loud, and too many cars to watch out for. I’d rather run through the park, dash across private property Ferris Bueller style (LOL), etc.
Of course, the last time I jogged there was a Republican in the White House, so maybe I should just shut up!! π
mk – I think there’s the law – which says bicyclists have as much right to the road as anyone – and then there’s common sense, which says a 200 lbs bicycle/bicyclist combo has no business sharing the road with a 4000 lbs vehicle. And two abreast? That’s illegal AND stupid.
I’m a bicyclist (well, mountain biker) and I get nervous riding on the side of a busy road. I’d rather ride up and down a mountain over big rocks…less risky.
Tim – You make a compelling case – great points, and great work. π
Justin – Here here on bicylcists running red lights and ignoring stop signs. If you want to use the road like a car, at least obey the same laws. After all, the traffic laws are there for everyone because they make everyone safer.
Good to hear from you, btw! π
Mike – I’m with you when you say “who cares” about the rude comments by the police officers. They (you) deal with a lot of crap, so a great deal of latitude should be given in regards to morbid jokes or mean-spirited comments. If you guys can’t vent, you might not be in the right frame of mind during an emergency. Far better for you to make fun of me than to unleash a day’s worth of frustrations on a single lawbreaker.
Also, good point about pedestrians being at fault. In Manhattan, I saw numerous pedestrians make a stupid or thoughtless move into traffic and damn near get hit (I even saw a young woman get laid out by a Taxi). Pedestrians take risks, often times because they’re not paying close enough attention (at least in NYC).
Josh – Sounds infuriating. I can understand where you’re coming from: If you act like a car, you should follow the same rules, right?
Mickey – Me too – jogging next to the road isn’t much fun in my book. Too loud, and too many cars to watch out for. I’d rather run through the park, dash across private property Ferris Bueller style (LOL), etc.
Of course, the last time I jogged there was a Republican in the White House, so maybe I should just shut up!! π
It was 2003 for me when I retired from the Navy. No more running.
It was 2003 for me when I retired from the Navy. No more running.